Tales of Maj'Eyal 1.3.0 release date set!

My dear minions, and future dear minions,

For once I'm doing something very strange: I hereby announce that Tales of Maj'Eyal 1.3.0 shall be released on the 18th of March!
Yes a release date. From me. Amazing ;)

This release will bring you a huge ton of stuff that would be too long to list here, but a few highlights are the addition of the Ogre race and the total revamp of both chronomancer classes!


Ok ok, you can have a trailer, I will allow it ;)


Now all that is left to do is wait patiently the 18th. Also, take that chance to finish your current characters in some horrible painful deaths ;)

Oh Yeah

I'm very happy to see this! Paradox mage has always been my favorite class and I look forward to seeing how they play in 1.3.

One Thing Left.

Looks great!
The only thing left on my wishlist now is a patch to address the skill bloating.

It's not only that there are too many skills, if we print out the text attached to each of the around 50 abilities each character has, we get a small novel. Too many buttons, too much text, too much 80's in game design in that aspect. Less is more. Streamline a bit please, I got the point where i refuse to try out new classes, because I simply don't want to read 10 pages of a novel called "skill descriptions".

Thankfully you can skip it

Thankfully you can skip it all. :) Some of us actually like the creative effort put into the game. Lore is good.

I'm not entirely sure what

I'm not entirely sure what lore has to do with skill descriptions. Or how you skip them. If you want to have any idea of what you're (supposed to be) doing anyway.

(or more precisely the massive bloat of stuff you accumulate over the game, I wasn't particularly surprised to hear dreadfell used to be the last dungeon)

It seems to me that the

It seems to me that the complaint is really about having to read. Imho the more game information you can gather, the better. Whether it be skill descriptions, lore or simple stats. No one forces you to read each line. It does not take much skill to find what you want from the descriptions.

I would understand if this was a request for a verbose and terse versions of the skills and stats but don't hold your breath. (Sounds like an addon right?)

I have to disagree

I've spent enough time in this game to at least give every class a try now, and it doesn't really seem to me like there's that much excessive text in skill descriptions- a lot of them just do so many things that they need to have long descriptions (mindslayer aura skills for example). I admit that I haven't read skill descriptions in a while (beyond hopping in game just now to check a few of them), so I'd love a few examples of what you're talking about, but from what I've seen, the majority of skill descriptions seem to consist of a couple sentences (at most) of flavor text describing what it does and the important details of what the skill actually does.
On the topic of too many skills, I think that if you were to look at the number of skills across all classes, there definitely is a ridiculous number of skills. However, looking at each class individually, most have a pretty normal number of skills for an rpg character. For example, mindslayer has 55 skills (plus whatever you get from extra skill trees picked up along the way, as well as however many race skills your race has), anorithil gets 40, etc. For comparison to other games, classes in guild wars 2 get a minimum of 4 different weapons with 2-5 skills per weapon, and then a choice of three skills from somewhere around 20 utility skills, one healing skill from around 5, and one elite skill from around 4ish. In dungeons and dragons online, many classes can almost fill the screen with bars full of skills- I used 10 bars of at least 10 skills/usable items each when I played. For comparison to another single player game, skyrim, the baldur's gate games, and plenty more provide you with similar numbers of skills. There's plenty of other examples, but the point is, you don't really have THAT many skills compared to other games. (Also, would you rather each class be forced into using a small set of skills or have the choice of multiple skillsets? You're not using every skill a class has to offer in most situations.) In this game, I tend to find myself cycling between 10-20 skills in a normal fight near the end of the game, which isn't terrible at all in my opinion.


WoW, the standard of gaming today, admitted when classes passed 50 skills that bloating had gotten out of hand and needed to be addressed, something which they did in WoD by merging some skills and removing others.

Tome has reached the exact same point, where new players feel the time investment to pick this game up and learn all the skills just to get started is too great, and move on to other games for the masses, i.e MOBAs that have way fewer skills to keep track of.

Even I, as an old player that has been playing this game for about nine years now, am getting tired of keeping track of this many classes times so many skills, i find myself sticking to the few 3-4 classes I know best and not having the energy to invest to research builds for new ones.

Maybe time to add a "use default build" button, that auto-skills up for you, after a build specified by the class designer considered a good all-round build, so I can do less theory-crafting and more gaming instead, and you youngesters that like fiddling around with builds all day can still have your fun.

I'm curious as to how you

I'm curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion that ToME has reached a saturation point where new players give up. I assume there is anecdotal evidence involved, but I'm not clear as to the process you're describing. A plethora of choices and options (of which you can only take advantage of two at a time, race and class) somehow affects the ability of new players to learn? If anything -- and I'm speaking anecdotally and deductively -- the complex options available make it *easier* for new players. Temporal mage too difficult for you to manage? Switch to bulwark, or the relative simplicity of an alchemist. Frustrated by the lack of ranged attacks to help keep you safe until you can work out the nuances of combat? Try an archer or archmage. Struggling to deal with hordes of enemies? Try a summoner or necromancer to create allies. And so forth. The process of trial-and-error is always going to remain in an RPG -- it's not a linear rail-shooter where you just have to let the plot carry you along. And "ideal" builds are going to vary greatly between players. Do you concentrate on shadows and ranged magic with a necromancer, or on undead summoning and avoidance? One-handed weapons and off-weapon or two-handed weapons for a beserker? Stealth and surprise, or straight-up confrontation with a emphasis on avoidance for a rogue? And so forth. Theory-crafting is done as much through personal preference and experience as it is through, well, theory. A better approach, I think, would be to post your own ideas about what does and doesn't work on the forum or wiki if you want to help people who'd rather learn from the experiences of others than surf the learning curve themselves.

Personally, I think it's just preference. You're playing for whatever reason, and you find sticking to a few tried-and-true classes fulfilling. Others are intrigued by the variety of choices available to them. Either way, a new player will have to invest *some* effort into the game. If s/he has no desire to do so, perhaps ToME -- and rogue-likes in general -- simply isn't the best choice for him or her, even with the suggestion of the creators telling them exactly what to do.

I disagree with you

I disagree with you wholeheartedly.
One of the main reasons ToME is such a great game is the amount of depth it provides, we have that depth thanks to all the classes/races and their skills,
and the ability to build in more than one way just adds to that. Multiple choices are a good thing, if everything is streamlined and simplified we'd end up with something bland and boring, with no replayability. A lot of people are going to disagree with me on this probably, but there's a lot of roguelikes out there where your choices are few and far between with barely any choices between classes, or where every skill is a passive and races/classes hardly matter other than having x or y passive, this has 0 charm to me since everything feels samey and that's both boring and uncreative aside from roleplay value which honestly dies off after a while. One of the reasons I've been able to spend so much time in ToME is because of its wide array of skills of all types.

I've always been reluctant to listen to people who feel the need to shove WoW into everything, because WoW both has nothing to do with ToME nor should be taken as a standard for everything. I don't think anyone should be able to just pick up something new and excel in it right away, I'm sure this is true for WoW as well. These things require some thought and experience to grab ahold of generally, and this is fine, otherwise you should probably be looking for simpler incarnations of the genre or a different genre altogether, but to each their own I guess.

I honestly don't feel like going through all the new skills at times, but I think it's either just me being lazy or not being all that interested in the class to begin with, but more often than not it's worth checking things out and learning them, specially the newer classes which keep getting more and more fun.
As far as the "default build" thing goes, I'm fairly sure something like that was in the process of being implemented or thought about at some point in the recent past so you may want to look into that and the people involved/interested.

This. Very well put.

This. Very well put.

We try to keep new players in

We try to keep new players in mind. Not overloading them with too many class choices is part of the reason most classes, especially the more complicated ones, start out locked. It's also why Archmages have four talent trees you have to unlock.

We also use locked trees as a way to ease players into a class. The new Paradox Mage has five unlocked class trees (20 talents) and four locked (16 more). That's 36 talents. Three of these class trees they share with Temporal Wardens, which cuts down on how much learning a new player has to do.

They also have four generic trees. Again three of these they share with Temporal Wardens and one starts out locked.

Talent descriptions are also something I keep in mind while writing as well as designing new talents. There's only so much information most people can parse before their attention starts to drift.

Maybe for 1.4 I'll rewrite and retune solipsists so the talent descriptions don't crit new players for 10,000 damage. In the meantime I have 100 other things I'd love to work on and only so much time I can spend on the computer each day. I'm sure Darkgod and the other contributors feel the same way.

Response to above postings.

I agree the depth, variety, and verbosity of skills is part of why I have played tome for 10 read that 10 years.

I have left, and returned to tome on and off again and had to reread nearly everything time and time again, but I have enjoyed it immensely. It is the kind of depth and richness almost never found in rpgs (and in many roguelikes) while it lacks all of the (usually unncessary) options of roguelikes like df among others, it has an enormously engaging story, setting, and the sheer level of content each class contains is so astounding it has taken me a year of playing to fully grasp the archmages arsenal and potential combinations (or so I thought) only to discover just how glorious aetherial magic truly was today (upon rereading said descriptions and taking time to ponder them)

The new 1.3 chronomage was alot of reading to learn compared to simpler games, but overall only took me about 5-10 minutes (leisurely mind you) to fully understand each skill, and most of their implications in game, and I enjoyed every minute of that read.

But to each their own. I'm honestly interested in hearing about Possessors!

Back on subject...

Nice job on the trailer, DarkGod! The Ogre race and wyrmic changes came as a surprise. Can't wait to see the changelog for this patch.

My 2 cents

Personally I feel like the number of skills is at a great place right now. Every class feels very distinct in how it plays, and even within a class there are usually 2-3 different playstyles you can use which tend to have different feels as well. And honestly, I don't see how the game having hundreds or even thousands of skills really matters if you can only access 40-50 of them at a time. Sure, in order to play every single class you have to have read all of them, but you only play one at a time, and new players don't have to worry about all that because they only have access to about 6 classes to start with, and the game does auto-pick their starting skills at least, so they don't have to worry about that too much either.

As for the skill descriptions being overly long... I really don't see that. Most of them are fairly concise and don't contain more than a few words (focus on your corruption to...) that don't directly contain information you need to know about how the ability works. I'm sorry if you feel that the abilities being more complex than 'deal X damage to Y targets in Z area' makes them too long to read, but if all abilities were parred down to that, the game would be incredibly drab.

Also, as a point of note, I just read through all the abilities of my current class (Reaver) and with the exception of a couple of the disease related skills, none of them clocked over 50 words, and most were around 30. I suppose with the 30 skills that amounts to having to read around a thousand words, which is maybe 10 minutes or so of reading? If you're reading carefully and such. That isn't that large of an investment to get the basics of a class. Sure, it isn't the 20 seconds of a MOBA to learn your character's skills, but in all honesty, to play a MOBA, you need to learn every skill of every character to have any real chance at anything, so really it has an investment of several hours, even before you get to build order, metagame, etc. I similarly don't see getting very far in WoW with only 10 minutes of reading. Their talent selection alone is (or used to be, I think they changed it) that much time.

As a small side note, if the number of skills in a class were to change dramatically, then the way things like stun work might need to be changed as well, since a large number of skills helps bypass the cooldown halting of the stun, if everyone has half as many skills, then stun is twice as dangerous (roughly).

Finally, I'm curious, what skills would you take out? What skills do you feel require so much reading and provide so little to a class that they should simply be chucked to shave a few seconds off the time it takes to learn a class that will be played for hours?


I'm so sad about the release date, I had yesterday and today off, and it comes out tomorrow :(

specific time of day known?

curious if its 00:00 or some time during the day?

Temporal Warden bug?

First of all this update is great!
Really like new Temporal Warden's skillset and other updates are nice as well.

Though I've encountered a weird thing with Warden now. In 1.2.5 when I switched to melee left clicking was melee attack. When switched to bow it was shooting. Now when I am switched to bow left click changes weapon set to melee and performs melee attack. Additionally switching sets with Q during combat costs a turn, though I suppose it shouldn't.

Is it a bug or I'm doing something wrong?


I took free swapping out and integrated it into the talents themselves to get rid of some stuff with staves I wasn't liking.

If you bind shoot to left click you'll be able to shoot again with left click. It's no longer bound by default.