Too Hard

Well after spending a good part of the day playing my last character "Hopeless" (aptly named) I died a whole lot of times at once in the daikara dungeon. After that it was really just over for me. I did manage to kill Ranth but had to flee without looting the body because a more dangerous monster awaited in the wings. (Some super nasty undead spell caster, sort of like a Skelly Mage if it had access to all spells and was able to cast something horrendous each turn.)

So that's it for me for awhile. No more TOME until it tones down a little. The frustration of having spent all that time to get a character to level 20 to have him die repeatedly to scaling/power issues is ridiculous. But I blame myself for that as I know I am not a good player even though I have played most of the bands and have extensive experience with both strategy and roleplaying games. Good players seem to sail through the challenges like a breeze and have no problems dealing with anything that I consider unfair or impossible. Even so I hope the game does begin to accommodate those who are not hard core power gamers.

Some comments on the game itself:
a) The UI is dramatically improved from previous versions of t-engine, however some of the things one expects in a band are missing or hard to find. A lot of the hot keys are unmapped which means less functionality. In that same vein the user command box on the lower right could stand to be done a little more efficiently, allowing more than 12 commands to show there with up/down arrows. All in all however this area of the game is just A++.

b)I really love the way the game unlocks different things at different stages and how each achievement is recorded and given some emphasis. The documentation (in game) could stand some work, but overall while not being linear it still gives the player a good idea of what to do next which is imho important in a game this large where you can stumble and die at nearly every opportunity. One thing that would be nice is if the game warned you when you are about to make game changing decisions like ignoring the thief/merchant quest (because you are afraid it will bug out like prior versions) only to discover it never comes again. (Well it never did for me and I spent some time attempting to get by walking randomly around the world map.)

c) The house while hard to accomplish is a deft touch. Giving the player a base is probably one of the biggest things you can do to tie them into the game.

d) The escort quests are stupid hard, unless you get lucky and the & is near the entrance AND the npc @ doesn't idiotically charge the nearest badass and die while your @ is engaged with 3 other badasses. It does help in certain maps to have unpassable channels but I had one quest in this last character where the escort died from collateral damage by a baddy. In fact in the last stage of Daikara the Boss was waiting 5 steps from the entrance in an unavoidable path so the NPC really had no chance at all even though I rushed the boss. In another instance in the same dungeon I suicided twice (killing the enemies around him while taking a beating) to keep the @ alive only to have him kill himself on known traps. :/

d) the game seems to favor spellcasters/ranged attackers at least in terms of monsters. Only a few melee monsters are really challenging much past their half level point. Spellcasters seem intensely dangerous beyond their typical threat level (ie: skelly mages vs skelly warriors.) Archers are likewise deadly without apparent reason. Yes we can go to "realism" because many games do but I feel that gaming isn't fun if that is the crutch we always rely on to make things more "challenging." That said killing them does give a certain satisfaction akin to crushing roaches, irl.

e) one of the nastiest effects in the game is the confuse spell. Not just because it does terrible things to the character but because it screws with the UI and makes using the mouse nearly impossible which I personally detest in games. I prefer to not be actually blinded/confused/stunned by the games I am playing letting my avatars take the brunt instead. After all I am not the character...

Anyway I hope you all have fun improving this. For now I am out...Happy New Years!

I am not sure I completely

I am not sure I completely agree with you, though I do think it would be good for tome to accommodate different peoples tastes and difficulty degrees.

I have an idea (I need to propose it to DarkGod), which I think would be an improvement, and add a great deal more customization to difficulty levels.

Yes, escort quests are hard, but they are worth it. I am able to save 90+% of mine though escorts on the boss levels are pretty much doomed.

I would agree that in Maj (not the far east) that melee monsters get weak to you fast (unless they are skellies), but in the far east they are still harder. I guess it really is because most melee monsters in Maj do not use weapons, so their damage is restricted some.

Confuse is a pain and one of the best resistances to get, I do think that it could be improved on more (mental save is the hardest one to increase)

All that said... don't stay away too long.

Some answers and

Some answers and comments:

a) I also miss some keys like a dedicated command to shoot a bow or sling. On the other hand there are already 36 commands that can be shown in the box by switching pages with PageUp/PageDown. Tab also shows a list of monsters in line of sight and their distance which is really useful.

b) A guide for new players could be useful, as well as additional warnings (e.g. before doing something that will end a quest).

c) The house is a nice achievement, and I hope that DG will add more functions later. Before this version I usually used a vault to store non-needed items.

d) Escort quests are hard because of the idiotic behaviour of the NPCs. A good solution would be to have a chat menu with some orders (stay here, follow me in 6 tiles distance, don't leave my side and so on). Mages have it easier because controlled phasedoor, time prison, stone wall can be used to keep the NPC safe.

d) Yes, archers and mages are more dangerous than pure melee NPCs (at least in the west). You need a good ranged defense, good armour, or good physical defense against archers and good resistances against mages, and both is difficult to obtain early in the game. It is easier to increase constitution early on and to learn/increase the Health talent. Another thing to note is that you can dodge projectiles like some spells or arrows, e.g. by going one step backwards, and that mages and archers will not attack with projectiles if another monster is between them and you.

e) About the graphic effect: The effects can be disabled in the main menu (ESC->Video Options->Framebuffers:disabled).

Regarding b

I'm slowly but surely working on a Guide of New Players along with Character Builds while also starting a Zone by Zone strategy bit for general game play and possibly for specific classes [though don't hold your breathe on the last one] and have also contributed to the Wiki. The wiki isn't all spoilers and should be check by everyone.

Give me and the other people working on these things some time - they won't be complete until T4 is complete, and as any developer will tell you, a true game is never complete.

Can be frustrating...

Just lost my lvl 23 Alchemist to a monster summon trap. 1 second, no monsters. Next second, I'm surrounded by 15 mobs that use AoE effects, breath weapons and multiply. Tried out Gem Portal to get out of the mess, as supposedly it's meant to move you up to 10 squares... didn't move at all. Used a shock then to push mobs out to hope to get to run to door, but just led to there being another 7-10 mobs. Regen and Shielding couldn't cope with the 300+ dmg/rnd. My 600hp golem was killed in one round.

Really sucks to lose a well geared character that was progressing very well to another monster zerg from a trap or effect that gave no warning - even with talents/gear to show traps/invis etc; combined with a broken game mechanic. Documentation really sucks if you want to do any reading on talent trees or spell usage.

I'd removed my Phase rune after it repeatedly put me in a worse scenario that I wanted to get out of. Found a magic scaling shielding rune that up until the death point, easily got me out of any bad situation.

So now ultimately, I still have no idea what mechanic of the game led to there being so many mobs instantly appear at once at certain locations. Cannot avoid or handle differently the unknown.

After playing roguelikes since basically their inception, and experiencing most which exist, I'll easily say this is one of the best in how it looks and plays. Facing 30%+ of a total zone's mobs as you first enter was tough. How easily a well geared, experienced stat/resist balanced toon can be wiped in 3 rounds is just disappointing.


Never saw the house quest or any vaults.

Look forward to encountering that feature.

Mostly I'm glad that beta 18 fixed the golem problem. My first Alchemist was nicely monstered by his disgruntled pet from not being careful with cast paths. :p


That same problem affects a lot of games. Quite funny if you aren't the victim of it but thoroughly depressing if you are. I, too am glad to hear that. Thanks for bringing it to attention.


I agree that seemingly instadeath situations are bad and should not happen like that.
If you played since the early betas you'll know that I'm working toward making the game more fair and balanced. Always :)

That said, loosing high level chars is also the very definition of game with permanent death, that can not be denied (and ToME is nice on that account, you can ingame ways of resurrecting and the extra lives is easy/normal mode).

As for your comments gandolfo I certainly welcome them, only through such things can the game improve :)
About the keybinds though I do not really agree, what more would you like ?
Quaffing potions/reading scrolls is useless since there are no more. So really you only need one command to use the odd activable item or to inscribe an infusion/rune.

As for shoot, it should not be a specific key. Why ? Because it's a ranged attack like any others, why should it have a specific key? If it had, then manathrust should too, and Flame, and Lightning, and Drain and ... :)
Now if the problem is that you'd prefer to shoot by pressing 'f' that I can understand and it's easily doable. Say you put you Shoot on hotkey 1, just go to the keybind menu and bind hotkey 1 to 'f' and you're done. You can also bind items to hotkeys BTW and you do get 36 hotkeys, which should be largely enough for all classes.

Thanks for your comments, hope youre back soon!

Well one key binding I think

Well one key binding I think is essential for new players is 'h'/'?'. These two things should always work in keyboard based games as they are the first things new players try when stuck. They should definitely lead to some kind of documentation that actually works and is informative. (A wiki-based solution could work here if the player doesn't mind opening a browser.)

'n' is also a much missed key. Repeating your last action is extremely handy when it involves multiple keystrokes or clicks. Being able to do so is like a mini macro without having to do any work.

I think an automap ('m') feature would be very good too. Mapping is one of the primary adventurer's tools. Without a good automapper the player has to be able to understand what the minimap symbols mean and that requires squinting and or glasses. Maybe since it is rather GUI already such a feature could be clickable on the mini map itself as well.

I think 'f' (fire) is a great key map as are 'v' (throw) and 'T' (dig) but I understand why they were not included. In most bands spells usually get their own command ('c' or 'm' or 's' or 'p') but again I understand why you didn't do that.

As for the Lower righthand display what you said is not clear from using it. Also the keybinding you suggest is also not clear.

I really wanted the character screen to be full screen and more informative. Seeing the dumps I know there is a lot more infomation than what shows up on the 'C' screen.

Your comments regarding the high level death thing is certainly true. I just found it extraordinarily frustration to have all those deaths in one area at one time being as careful as I know how to be. Multiple confusions/ranged area of effects and massive armies = hard to survive on any level. The home was actually easier than I initially thought it would be ...the casters made it very difficult but that was actually ok since I learned a bit how to deal with them. (Teleporting away when in trouble helps a lot, though it's no guarantee of safety.) The main thing is no matter how many lives a person has they will lose them all in death trap situations and the higher level you get the more dangerous the game gets progressively.

Also, Level 20 is not high level imho. It is certainly a milestone but it is a far cry from level 50. I was happy to have made it that far but disappointed that it all ended.

One thing I would like to see that you might want to think about is inheritance. If you find one or two interesting items it would be great if there was a quest to get them back on the next generation. (Perhaps a quest unlocked by dying after a certain level? 'Lay the ghost to rest'...?) That would definitely go a ways towards alleviating the pain a little.

Thanks for the comments guys. I will come back when my brain/heart rally a bit (and after I play some other games.)

Favourite Accepted Death

The NE cave - full of frost giants and other frozen mobs.

See an X come through the wall, and send the Golem in, with explosions and shock.

Seconds later, another X appears, and another.

3 killed and another 5 creep in. They're getting tougher.

Golem almost dead. Regen and mana runes on cooldown. I'll Phase out.

Explosion, shockwave, run. My life becomes a simple cycle of actions trying to live. 4 left. 3 left. 2 left... o dear.

The X has reformed with full life. AoE, it's knockback saves me. Regen applied. Explosion, shock, fire stave! It's low on health, but I'm lower... can I survive?

Cornered near the exit, trapped in a dead end. I know I can kill it in 3 or 4 rounds. I stay and fight. It smiles, drops its left shoulder and follows through with the right knocking me senseless and leaves me with an option "use blood to survive, or dump char".

I rise from the dead and smite the boss. My final rising from the grave expended, but a heroic fight that was incredibly fun. A stave and heavy armour in the loot from a lvl 31 mob... I ask for a Scrying... o dear... it's a reward I would have loved at lvl 5, but at lvl 19 it's only worthwhile as a toothpick.

Oh man

That nails the experience in a nutshell. Well said!

BTW DG: this is the only Captcha I have ever used where I needed multiple refreshes for each of the two times it comes up for each post...