I'm giving up ....

... on Roguelike as a difficulty level. For now.

Honestly, maybe it's just too damn ambitious to believe, I could just waltz in here an beat this fine game the way it's 'meant' to be played, before ever having played through a few (dozen?) times on an easier level.

I mean, I really, REALLY used to be able to get to T2 with most of my characters. Get into the Fortress nearly every game. That was before my glorious run with a Drem Writhing One to level 50 (https://te4.org/characters/16429/tome/49e13bec-0702-4c25-9cbf-bd72de55f6bb) followed by attempts to really break into the Orc campaign. Seems like I sorta lost all mojo, as I can't even get into the Fortress anymore.
These days, I'm running an (at least) 4 game streak of games with Zero (0) items to solve the breathing under water problem for Lake Nur. What's that tell you?

So anyway, 11 years and 5 weeks, and 309 characters (most all of them dead) I give in to advice you basically read all over the place: Start on Adventure, you clueless nit!

Wish me luck. :)

Edit: I finally have a Winner!
I'm pretty sure that Elemental Fury played a vital part in this, but either way, my drought is over!

Good luck

No right way to play. Enjoy yourself.

I play Insane Roguelike, but it takes me months between wins, trying flat out.

I think I just like watching myself suffer.

Nur Kit

These days, I'm running an (at least) 4 game streak of games with Zero (0) items to solve the breathing under water problem for Lake Nur. What's that tell you?

Well, it tells me that you should be using my Nur Kit addon, created out of precisely the sort of frustration you describe.

Nur is a completely optional

Nur is a completely optional zone + it spawns water bubbles you can use to replenish air. You don't need a waterbreathing tool for it (also modding out a problem instead of using ingame tools to solve it is the most boring approach known to men)

It's optional, though calling

It's optional, though calling it "completely" optional is a bit of a stretch. It's possible to win the game without doing Nur, afaik, but it's a somewhat more difficult task, probably beyond the abilities like the frustrated OP above until they get much more experienced in playing. For now, they're best off completing the Sher'tul Fortress quest.

Let's put it this way then:

Let's put it this way then: Unless you use the item vault (which is a topic of completely different discussion), then doing Nur reduces your chances of winning as you gain almost nothing and the place is considerably more dangerous (due to the basetypes spawning in dry nur) than other relevant dungeons


…wow. I think you managed to hit every single one of the objections I anticipated in my initial write-up:

Moasseman wrote:
Nur is a completely optional zone

Objection #2: "Oh, but you don't need to do Nur. You can always just carry around 200 pounds of potential swap-in gear in your pack for the entire game. I mean, what did you think the I Can Carry the World prodigy was there for?" Storage is what you need the fortress for.

Moasseman wrote:
+ it spawns water bubbles you can use to replenish air.

Objection #3: "Water breathing? Pfft. Wimp. You're supposed to just hold your breath really hard and hope you get lucky and find the down stairs before you asphyxiate." Water bubbles run out, especially in a protracted fight. A resource (air in this case) that's finite and non-renewable is useless.

Moasseman wrote:
You don't need a waterbreathing tool for it

Objection #1: "Aww, but where's the fun if you can't randomly miss out on vitally important gear?" If I can't sit in that water buble and rest my life and resources all the way back to full and my cooldowns down to zero, as many times as I need to, then no, water breathing gear is not optional in Nur.

Moasseman wrote:
(also modding out a problem instead of using ingame tools to solve it is the most boring approach known to men)

Water levels as "challenge" is the most boring approach known to man. (And for the record, water breathing gear is an in-game tool; all I'm doing is arranging for that tool to be available when the player needs it.)

Yea, unsurprisingly facts are

Yea, unsurprisingly facts are not really that hard to "guess". It's kinda like if you made an addon that just makes the player invincible and wrote "But wääh, now there's no challenge in the game as the player can't lose" as one of the "objections"


I note with interest that you made no attempt to counter any of my refutations of your "facts". It's kinda like if you had difficulty understanding the difference between "challenge" and "pointless annoyance", and then made a great show of knocking down a straw man instead of addressing what my addon actually does.

I don't think i've ever

I don't think i've ever personally used the fortress for storage, so its certainly possible to get by without it. I typically don't have more than an extra set of gear at any given time (typically stuff i can't equip yet because i'm waiting for levels, stats, or something else before doing so). Normally its not a full set though, and a full set of gear isn't 200 pounds. I do use the fortress extensively near the end of the game on the randomly generated levels though, which you didn't mention here. Different strokes for different folks i guess.

I've beaten nur several times without water breathing, and that would have been impossible without the bubbles, so they definitely aren't useless.

I'm not convinced its possible to miss out on water breathing gear by the end of the campaign. It would be something like an extreme statistical anomaly. The odds of not finding any water breathing gear before you go east are more relevant, but one should be able to access nur by the end of the game extremely consistently.

A lot of characters don't need to stop and rest to clear a level at all, let alone a level thats on the easier side like underwater nur. It would be more correct to say "water breathing gear isn't optional for every character".

I personally think nur is one of the more interesting "gimmick" zones in the game. It prompts you to play a little differently in what is otherwise a pretty monotonous genre. The sandworm cave on the other hand... With that said, unlike the OP i also see nothing wrong with modding the game to be more enjoyable to yourself. Games are meant to be fun after all.


Completely is accurate. You don't need to do it, and I'm really curious what you might think a player gains from it that will help them progress in the game. You can access the item vault there if you are a donator, but using vaulted items is expressly not the way the game is intended to be played and if anyone feels they need vaulted items to succeed, they really should spend more time mastering the basics (how to engage tactically, which tools are available universally and when they are useful, when to abandon a fight as a lost cause, which talents and effects to look for when inspecting an enemy and whether they are particularly debilitating to your current character, how and when to prioritize certain stats on gear, etc.).

To the original point of the post, playing on Adventure mode is fine, but if your aspiration is to beat the game on rougelike, then you should play on rougelike to reinforce the habits that will actually make that possible. Learning which zones are worth skipping would be a good one, for a start.

ah yes, "not the way its

ah yes, "not the way its meant to be played"

no one cares how you play your game, why do you care about how others play theirs? this game has difficulty options, unlocks, donation unlock, and mods support.

please do get over yourself.

I have always played on roguelike

I came from other roguelike games like DCSS, ADOM, etc, so it felt natural for me to play on roguelike and I get more enjoyment out of the risk to die, I don't have that many wins, still working on my insane difficulty win, and I use 0 mods (except the dlc), this style of play may not be for everyone though and I think you should play whatever way makes you have the most fun, for example DCSS I have 2 wins out of 4265 games. I am pretty terrible, but I still love playing it even knowing I will probably loose the vast majority of games... that however is not for everyone. as for the lake nur thing, maybe my way of thinking is crazy but I have never actually used water breathing for it, I always save an item if I get one with waterbreathing but I have never actually switched to it during lake nur, and I am pretty sure I have never died in Nur, I have died to the boss after it before though.

Hi there. There's a lot

Hi there. There's a lot salty people in the comments here. I just thought I'd drop some tips on how to get past your lake Nur issues.

The zone is really not very friendly. It has pretty abysmal loot most of the time (I've been surprised, but loot isn't what I come here for). The main purpose is generally to use the vault. The storage option is... there. But really, it's mostly pointless. Most of your inventory can probably be sold since the majority of items won't be things you will ever come back to use. Managing inventory I think is a better way of handling it than just coming here to drop stuff.

As for the vault, I always consider what I even have in my vault. I don't have a lot of inventory space and I generally only save items for when I want to do a big meme run. If there's nothing in the vault you need, I'd recommend just putting off visiting lake Nur until you're so strong the difficulty of the place is trivial. Coming here early is dangerous.

You can get around needing underwater items entirely here. Some classes have abilities that really help out. Some don't. There are items that can help too. If you -need- items or certain skills to get through it safely, don't try to go before you have them! Burning Crystal is amazing. Omniscience does the trick. Anything that can reveal the map will let you scout ahead for the exits. If you want to make your life easier without items, just relying on water bubbles, do not auto rest or auto explore. Both of those actions will make you wait longer than you should in most cases. Don't rest on bubbles. If you're at full air and you rest a turn on bubbles, you're wasting the uses. Moving manually lets you skip exploring every tile so you can focus on exploring the big spots, conserving air and making you more likely to find the staircase quicker.

If you're really wanting to vault something, I'd still recommend just waiting until you've beaten the game to do it, or maybe finishing the zone off after you come back from the East. Relying on the vault to win is a bad habit to get into. Relying on it for memes is the best use if you ask me :)

That said, don't forget to check your shops for items. Breathe underwater and items that make you act like an undead are pretty commonly sold in shops. If you haven't been checking, star getting in the habit! The shops add new items for sale on level 10,20,30,40,and 50.

There's also the ability to

There's also the ability to learn all the lore from previous characters. That's quite helpful for certain **no spoilers** things that require tracking down the various items of lore and waiting for random drops to get them to you.

Broke the curse

Wow, that's a lot of comments on my little post.

I've just beaten the game, and out of all things, even on Roguelike. My frustration with Nur has subsided, it's all much better now. :)


Yay, gratz!!! :D

I only managed to win on semi-roguelike so far. Could never resist opening locked chests/vaults/other dangerous whathaveyous to keep myself from dying.. :(

Still working on my 'pure' Roguelike win. Enjoy playing the Adventurer class. ;)

Thank you. Not sure I'm quite

Thank you. Not sure I'm quite ready to faff about with Adventurer yet. I have so much unlocking to do ;)

Yeah, resisting chests and such is SUCH an important skill. For that winning run I skipped every single vault from the Prides onwards. Admittedly, I had (what I though was) really good gear, so that was easy. That Elemental Fury ring alone probably made the game so much easier. No need to risk death at that point.


Skipping chests is cheating. Noone remembers a coward. /s

Excellent point

Also, not activating and fighting Atamathon before level 10 is cheating. I can't even count the number of so-called "winners" who skipped that important step, or only did it late in the game. Cowards don't deserve to claim they "won" the game without killing Atamathon before level 10.

Water-breathing? Who cares.

I always go straight in water breathing or not. I think I have one death in all of my many deaths I can attribute to drowning.

Sand is more scary. The times

Sand is more scary.
The times I tanked the sand crushing until, by chance, a worm excavates me will stay with me as some of my funniest ToME memories.

Sand is also scarier because

Sand is also scarier because items that offer water breathing don't help with that. You need to be undead -- either as your original race or through items like belts of unlife or corpselight lanterns -- to survive that. And you'll still get crushed.

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