Huge thanks to whoever it is updating the whole wiki! Even though I don't need this information so much anymore it's nice to know that any and all newer players will have access to more current information.

<3 u long tiem

Some of this has already been covered in my response to Grey and others, but I'll go over it again anyway for clarity. it was certainly never the narrative depiction of racism that I was concerned with. Quite the opposite, I consider that laudable and would like to see more of it, particularly where the Highers and Cornacians are concerned.

The game mechanics and presentation were what I felt bore some examination, not because I felt they were intentionally racist, but because I think they may have ended up looking that way accidentally.

Not everything about the Highers' superiority is presented as simply being their own opinion of themselves - some of it seems to be presented as objective reality. They really do have many traits that make them superior to Cornacians, which is what necessitates the experience penalty for playing them. Some of them are even called "racial" traits explicitly.

Your quote is accurate, and you're correct that the implication was quite serious. That made it all the more important, however, for me to establish a productive dialogue on the matter. I believe I have succeeded in that goal. I do apologize if anyone was offended by my remarks; such was not my intention. For what it's worth, I signed up to be a Silver Contributor to this game weeks ago. Obviously I must not hate this game or the wonderful man who created it, I have a voluntary monthly autodebit straight from my bank account to his!

As I've stated explicitly a few times now, I wasn't accusing DarkGod or anyone else of being a racist. He really obviously isn't. Full stop.

I was pointing out that some of the material in the game could be *perceived* as racist because of the way in which it is presented, particularly at the very beginning. This was probably something that should at the very least be looked at, don't you think? Like I said in the original post, I know I can't be the only one to see these similarities.

It's even clear to me where the accident occurred; the Highers are based on the Dunedain, who are in turn based on Atlanteans. The Aryans themselves were likewise supposed to be descended from the people of Atlantis. One of the discrepancies, however, was that the Dunedain, unlike the Aryans, were not blond; when the Shockbolt interface made the Highers' hair blond, it accidentally increased their resemblance to the Aryan race. Is this resemblance intentional? Of course not! But if I saw it, others will too, and doubtlessly these concerns will be raised again.

At some point, someone even more inexperienced with the game than me will come along and accuse DarkGod of racism for real, exactly as belmarduk imagines I am doing. And then the media might get ahold of it and turn it into something bigger than what it is, and all kinds of fallout will result.

I personally would not like to see that happen, because this really is a wonderful game with an uncanny level of social awareness, and for it to have its reputation slandered in that way would be unforgivable.

I used the word "Aryan." It's a completely different term. The Aryan Nations are a white supremacist group started in Idaho in the 1970s. The Aryans were the supposed ancestors of the Germans in Nazi ideology, descended from the people of Atlantis. You might want to read things more carefully before responding to them, belmarduk. You've had the wrong idea about me from the beginning.

It's so easy to misunderstand people and their intentions over the internet, it happens all the time. I do appreciate your point a lot more now that you clarified it though, because it's not at all certain that the lore should be considered polished and final, it might very well have some flaws.
The game and its' mechanics are still in beta, and in a way I think the lore should also be considered a work in progress. This might need some looking at, I mean if you got a very negative impression when starting off with the game it's pretty likely that there's gonna be other people who feel the same way -- especially since the games' audience seems to grow bigger and bigger.

I don't know what changes might be necessary, but it's good to bring this to the attention of darkgod and his fellow devs, so they're at least aware of how you (and likely others as well) perceived racism to be depicted in the game's lore.

It's a bit unfortunate that the comments started such a shitstorm, but as I said earlier it happens all the time ^^

Anyway have a nice day~~

-- TehRei

(edited for clarification/grammar)

Thanks for your insights, TehRei, and for your politeness. Not everyone here has been able to display that level of maturity. And I don't think your post is too lengthy; I'm a bit long-winded myself. B]

To address your concerns, I actually agree with you completely, on every point you make. The concern I had was not that there was racism present within the fiction itself. Quite the opposite, I think it's laudable that this is the case, and shows an unprecedented level of social awareness for a roguelike.

My concern was rather that the game itself appeared to *sponsor* racist thought a bit, however unintentionally, by providing an option to play a type of human that really was inherently superior to others from birth, a "master race" if you will. Grey, above, has since pointed me in the direction of additional material on the subject that I was unaware of, which has really gone a long way towards addressing all that.

Expressing racism as a social issue within the context of the game world has been exactly my suggestion from the start. I was glad to hear that it it is already on it's way towards that goal, and I'm gratified that so many others seem to share my perspective. I'm just sorry that there's been so much contention stirred up by my post; I really wasn't trying to offend anyone.

I don't see why this would be such a sore point to be honest. Isn't the purpose of all modern media to deal with and approach the various issues of our society? To serve as an outlet for discussion and contemplation of said issues?

Racism is definitely among the worst -- and possibly one of the most persistent -- of those problems. Why do you think shying away from that fact is going to help even one bit? If we can't accept and acknowledge the burden that racism surely presents to us all at this very moment, then how are we going to fight it? By avoiding the subject and sneaking around what would soon become the elephant in the room?

If we can't even handle the topic in a work of fiction, then:
How the hell are we going to handle it in the actual, real world?

I also don't see why racism would be out of place in a fantasy world with the technology and sciences being roughly equivalent to what we had in Europe during the 1300's. You don't even have to go farther back than South Africa in the early 1990's to find a state that still enforced racism by it's own laws, now imagine what you'd find if you'd turn the clock back a couple of hundred years instead...

Racism is probably not any more ethical in the world of Maj'Eyal than it is in our world, but then again we had institutes for studying so called "racial biology" around 50 years ago, so what's to say that the denizens of Maj'Eyal wouldn't make the same mistakes we made (and made quite recently at that)?

And as a side note, racism is hardly the only controversial subject that ToME's lore deals with, there are tons of other things that in my opinion are at least as thought provoking and in some ways more disturbing. (The orc breeding pits come to mind, whoever wrote that stuff did a very good job!)

I don't mean any disrespect towards you personally, I hope you understand that, and I truly believe that you only meant well -- I just wanted to clarify that at the end of this far too lengthy post.
Now I really didn't mean to rant or go on some personal crusade against you here :p It's just that this is such a complex issue and I feel very strongly about the right to express one's feelings on the matter. Perhaps even more so since I'm an aspiring writer.

Cheers,

-- TehRei

I'm relatively new to the game, and hadn't yet discovered the Analysis of the Races; I was basing my own analysis on the way the Highers are initially presented in the setup screen and on the talents they have access to. I'm gratified to hear that there's more to it than that.

I had seen some hints as to the discord between Halflings and humans in the statues at Last Hope, and from that I was able to discern readily enough that DarkGod was no racist, as I mentioned previously. Quite the opposite, he seems to have a keen sense of the ways in which people interact that grants his game a social awareness unlike any I've seen in a rougelike before. It breathes life into his work, and I find it quite remarkable.

Here's hoping we get more of the same. B]

If you want to have an argument with yourself, that's your privilege, but do it in private. Stop putting words in my mouth. Or at least buy me a drink before you do.

>Dwarves are based on ancient Germanic legends of dwarfs, a species of fairy. They were not human beings, and have nothing to do with Verne Troyer or any other dwarves in real life.

So it's not racism because it's fantasy fiction?

You just defeated your own argument. Congratulations.

You're accusing darkgod of supporting aryanism. (Your words, not mine.) That's not 'ideas of how to improve the game'. You even cross-posted it to a major roguelike board which was conveniently linked on reddit moments before. You are trying to drum up controversy over a complete non-issue.

quote:

Cornacians and Highers are explicitly defined as different types of human beings, however. Not metahuman, or demihuman, or psuedohuman. Not "Men." Human. They're people, like ourselves.

^^ So this wasn't you implying the non-human races in Tome are subhuman, despite one of them being based (however loosely) on a real group of people?

Western culture has changed quite a bit from the old days. Most people now use swear words on a daily basis, and rarely draw criticism because of it. This is because mainstream society is finally waking up to the idea that the notion of "profanity" itself is rather nonsensical.

These words are permanent parts of the English language that have evolved over thousands of years. They have etymologies and histories as long and complex as any other word you care to name. They are used by everyone at one time or another, because at the end of the day they are just words, and cannot do us any harm. Most children hear profanity every day, and sometimes even employ it themselves. They still somehow manage to grow up into productive adults all the same.

What is it, exactly, that makes swear words inherently "bad" when others that have the exact same meaning are still perfectly acceptable? It seems foolish to the point of superstition to imply that someone using such words is committing some kind of infraction against society, or that their vocabulary is somehow limited to the "potentially offensive."

If you wish to take offense from the use of some specific word that is not directed at you, that's your privilege, but keep it to yourself. Don't push others to censor their words because of your own antiquated notions of propriety.

It has only been a couple of days since I found out about this game, I saw a series of videos on Youtube. After my interest in roguelike-games had been awoken by "Dwarf Fortress" a few months ago, I started exploring the genre in depth. I played a good amount of them or at least got first impressions otherwise, but "Tales of Maj'Eyal" undoubtedly is one of the best I have seen so far. The only thing it is lacking for me is the randomness of the world, it becomes difficult to play through the same parts of the game over and over. But since I started out with "Dwarf Fortress" I am probably spoiled in that regard.

Overall this game does deserve to be mentioned when talking about the best of the best. But judging from my own experience, I can not be sure if the outcome of this contest has been influenced by the sheer number of players who even know a particular game. Roguelikes aren't games of the masses, so statistics can and will be deceptive.

I am getting off-road here. Just wanted to say that ToME is an awesome game, that it deserves it's place in this contest, that it is an incredible gift to be able to play it for free, that I do not care about minor things you are rewarded with by monetarily supporting this project, that I do feel bad I have not yet donated myself for all the fun I have gotten out of this game and that the terrible Internet exposes more and more people who need their noses broken by me.

Thanks for the work and effort put into this. And congratulations on being the best roguelike of 2011!

PS: I know I am late. But should I really care?